RodMoyes

Yes, I was talking about the VG.

You forget, I have a shop... When I am doing an oil change, I have the car airborn!!! From underneath, it's pretty hard not to knock something loose changing the filter. From up top, you have to have long skinny arms... I have long unskinny arms.

Rod.

260DET

We had a Z day at the race circuit the other day, a whole heap of L engined Z's turn up, fairly hot weather. Overheating and other problems, every second car. They are great for ordinary driving, start flogging them and kaput.

Don't take me too seriously though, I'm always taking the **** out of the L engined guys. Great engine in their day

duowing

See for me I've had the exact opposite experience. The VG30 was the one I had constant problems with and it had less mileage than my L28.

jfairladyz

They're both crap by todays standards if you want to get technicle If you want the best engine, buy something that was designed within the last decade atleast

And I'll second the longevity of the L. I've got over 250,000 miles on mine and the engine's never been opened up. The only thing thats come off the engine is the valve cover for routine valve adjustment and the timing chain replacement. Of course almost every part of the engines life support has had the need to be replaced. This tells me two things. Prince designed one hell of a motor (No, not Nissan ) and Bosch fuel injection from the 80's is crap, crap, crap. Of course having never owned a Z31 I can't vouch for that motor. I have spent a considerable amount of time around the VG30DETT I can vouch that it is a very stout motor. In stock trim with regular maintanance you're not likely to have engine failure. They can also handle a good deal of power with the stock bottom end. The problem is that power is so easy to make on those cars that a lot of people take shortcuts with it and the end result is an utter lack of reliability. It can get very hot under the hood of a Z32TT and it is because of this that a good deal of electronics and wiring can get fried. Especially with turbo upgrades. This causes a good deal of failures with those cars. And then I've seen people try to push too much boost through a motor with a stock bottom end and had catastrophy strike cause they were just being stupid. Then there's the people who try to slap in rods and pistons in their garage at home without having the block serviced and end up destroying otherwise good parts. All of these things lead to a bad reputation for a very good engine. An engine that needed just a little more breathing room IMO. Oh, and the first mod to any VG30DETT car should be to upgrade the cooling system. It's barely adequate on a stock engine. Start modifying and you start to push it's limits. Heavy modifiying and you're going to have trouble.

And 25+ year old cooling systems definitely tend to cause some overheating on them old L's

RodMoyes

Are they really? What would you call "Todays Standard". I'm not going to say that there aren't modern engines out there with better reilability or power but, I see plenty of modern motors with BIG reliabilty issues. Aside from all this is the fact that as modern engines get more technical, with variable timing and sensors up the wazoo, they only get more likely to leave you stranded somewhere. Most of these newer cars will stop running completly due to a simple sensor malfunction or run so poorly that you don't want to drive it. Then there's the cost of maintenance or replacing all those wonderful little parts. Ouch!

It's a plus and minus thing. There are some great advantages to the modern era of engine design, but there are a lot of advantages with the simplicity of old as well. Something to think about. There's a good reason why so many old school guys swear by the SBC 350. I personally am not a fan of it, but its very simplistic design gives it an edge when it comes to upgrading and modding.

Rod.

jfairladyz

Truth to everything you just said Rod. But put the design of those older engines next to the design of any of the newer engines in front of an engineer and they'll immediately point out the "crap" I'm a big fan of simplicity, and you're right, that's the allure of these older engines. I wasn't pointing that out though. I was thinking more along the lines of cylinder head design and things like variable valve timing, variable displacement engines, ULEV vehicls, and then there's the engine capable of producing zero emissions. When you look at it from that point of view. They are indeed crap

In all seriousness though I get what you're saying and when you look at it that way it's comparing apples to oranges. Now look at it this way. Take Nissans newest engine design and take away all the modern day electronic garbage and add a simplistic old school engine management system to it and it will far outperform an older engine. I tend to look at things like cylinder head design and things like that. Every thing on the ouside of the engine is replaceable My biggest gripe with manufacturers now is the whole drive by wire deal. Electronic throttle, electronic steering and even electronic braking (I'm not talking about ABS). These all take the fun out of the car in my opinion while limiting the amount of improvement you can put in a car. If only the L had a DOCH 4valve cross flow head with i-VTEC and with sequitial injection and the combustion chamber out of a VQ. Then it wouldn't be crap by todays standards. Does that make a little more sense? That's my argument summed up

RodMoyes

You almost just described the RB26... Almost.

I agree that design standards are far above that of twenty years ago. I also agree that the more things they add that get between the driver and the car take the fun out of driving. I love technology and gadgets and gizmos. I just prefer an engine with less fuss. I'll take the rest of the downside in lieu of all that modern electronica. I'm a tech nerd when it comes to most things, I just don't want it under the hood of my "Sports Car". Anyone who's ever had the priviledge to run an old Ferrari around a race track can appreciate where I'm coming from. Everything you say is indeed true. I just prefer simplicity over all. Otherwise, I'd be driving a 350Z with a crapload of mods.

Rod.

jfairladyz

Werd. I feel ya there. Of course there's also the fact that that's a bit out of my price range. But still, there were more "modern" cars I could've gone after. But the simple allure of the Z is what I was after. Of course once I drop the LS1 in it won't be quite so simple

Oh and Rod, if you want to find me an old Ferrari to drive around a track I'd be happy to give it a whirl Only Ferrari I've ever had the pleasure of cruising in was an old Testerossa. Not exactly my idea of an inspiring car. Fast as it was, it was just not my kinda ride. My buddies Z32 TT was a much more inspiring ride and a whole lot faster

duowing

Well in terms of old and new. I have to go older, for someone like me, and not having a lot of money, being able to do work on the car myself is so great. It saves me hundreds of dollars that would go to labor of the shop, and not to mention they'd probably start telling me things that they feel should be replaced and if I have no idea I'd prolly just say go ahead. Not to mention my friends think its really cool that I just go ahead and fix my car by myself. I do like some of the things that they do with engines, and at the same time I hate some of the newer stuff. I'm all for safer features, or a better monitroed engine, but some of this is ridiculous. Especially when there's so much stuff that you can't even change your spark plugs without dropping the engine.

Overall I'd love to see a 280ZX with a stock L28ET under the hood compared up against a 280ZX with a stock VG30ET under the hood. That'd be a neat comparison.

entropy31

btw: just did the oil on my vg30e the other day and didnt knock anything loose. again!

duowing

Do you just undo the oil filter with your hand, or are you sticking a wrench in there? I think we just had a bad sized belt wrench and the oil filter was on way to tight.

RodMoyes

No, Like I said... If you're standing UNDER the car and you reach up to remove the filter, it is very easy to knock something loose. I can't get my big arms in there from up top to do it. It's just a little quirk... not nit picking. I think on three consecutive oil changes on my buddies Z31, one of us knock a starter wire loose. Caca happens

Rod.

260DET

Isn't the VG30 a nice balance between size, simplicity, performance and durabilty? Lighter than the L28, no valve clearances to worry about although the cam belt is a negative, cross flow heads.

A more dirct comparison with the L28 is the RB30. Still a single cam two valver but with a cross flow head, hydraulic valve adjusters and stronger internals, particularly the crankshaft support. Far superior to the L in every way yet a very easy and simple engine to work on, personal experience

duowing

Unfortunately for us, the RB is alot harder to come by.

entropy31

just my hand, and it's easiest with my left hand.

Rod, yeah theres no way i would even try getting it from below. i'm 6'4" 240lb, and my big hands and arms dont fit well in tight spots. just glad i have long fingers, ive tightened many bolts between my index and middle fingers, ugh.