hey guys i was just wondering if anybody has any experience with nitrous i want to put a dry shot nitrous on my car just to get rid of the lag before the turbos kick in would that be a good choice ? or is there somthing else i can do for that ?

 

the same speach I give everyone (copied from the last time I gave it)


quotation from a friend who knows a little about tuning cars
"with a good tune, its probably safer then boost.

the problem is.. that whole good tune part. nitrous is very inconsistent due to variances in bottle pressure. bottle pressure effects how much nitrous you are spraying just as much as the jet size does."


my expansion:
"Nitrogen is a flame-retardant. The proper Air/Fuel/NitrousOxide ratio will separate the nitrogen and the oxygen evenly and the nitrogen will coat the cylinder walls and pistons, resulting in a lower cylinder temp (which means it's less likely to detonate). The trick is finding and maintaining the right ratio. Bottle pressure goes down as you use the nitrous, and as the bottle gets hot or cold sitting in your car, the pressure is directly varied. So if you tune it on a cold day with half a tank of nitrous, and then use it on a very hot day after just filling up, you're gonna blow your sh*t up."


So in conclusion, it's safe if you do it right, but it's a LOT of work to do it right.

(by the way, a dry shot is safer than a wet shot... anyone who argues with me better have a damn good argument, because I know EXACTLY why a dry shot with a good ECU tune is better than a wet shot and will point out the facts, not elementary opinions. I just don't feel liky typing it unless I am challenged on this matter)

 

I agree with Zlover, nitrous is safe and a great performance adder if it's done right. Zlover seems to know more than I do about nitrous and I feel he's right on. Another option to quicken spool time is to increase flow. What I mean by this is to do mods like a port and polish, cams, exhaust manifolds, etc.

 

I think jim wolf tech. has a computer nitrous system that does that automatically too so when u reach 10 psi the nitrous shuts off and you run on your boost.

 

I'll argue that, only because I've heard otherwise, so please correct me if I'm wrong. But I was under the impression that wet systems were better becuase of the additional mixture of both fuel and nitrous coming from the nozzle. I read that dry systems are dangerous because of the possibility of uneven atomization in the manifold, which could cause unevenly distributed amounts to go into different cylinders, leaving one cyl. to possibly have a higher mixture than another, and could potentially cause a higher chance of detonation. Whereas wet systems more evenly mix it before it reaches the cylinders by injecting both fuel and nitrous from the nozzle, and thus keeping the risks down. Please fix my knowledge if there is something about dry systems I don't know.

 

sure, I'll correct that.

A wet system injects fuel along with the nitrous at the injection point (which on our cars is the intake hoses right before the throttle bodies). What weighs more, fuel or air? Fuel is much heavier. Do you think the proper amount of fuel is going to be dispersed evenly over all 6 cylinders? No, it's going to be rich in cylinders 1 and 2 (where the, heavier, fuel is going to fall first), close to normal in 3 and 4, and it'll be lean in 5 and 6 because the fuel was too heavy to reach back there.

What do you know about direct port fuel injection which the 300ZX has? The fuel is injected directly at the cylinders, that's why it's WAY more efficient than careurated or throttle-body-injected engines. If you're running a wet shot, you pretty much have a fuel delivery similar to a throttle body injection system to provide your additional fuel. This is NOT an efficient way to provide fuel because, like I said, the cylinders furthest from the injection point will run lean.

On a dry system that is DONE PROPERLY, the sufficient ECU adjustments are made to inject the proper amount of fuel directly from the fuel injectors. This will cause a MUCH more even distribution of fuel than injecting it at your intake hoses.

That's why a dry shot with an ECU tune is WAY SAFER than a wet shot.

Of course, if you make no ECU adjustments at all for your nitrous system, a wet shot will be safer, but if you're running nitrous without making ECU adjustments you simply deserve to blow your **** up anyway.

 

That makes sense, however, you are saying that running a wet system is worse because it may cause some of the cyls in the rear to run lean (which could cause detonation), this would only be the case if it were initially running lean prior, since the injectors already keep the cylinders firing within safe perameters, all your doing is adding more fuel, and nitrous on top of that. So I don't really see how it could run lean, if anything, the foreward cylinders would be running rich, and the rears would be running closer to normal (w/ the addition of n20). Now I admit, ANY direct port injection system is ABSOLUTELY the safest way to go, hands down, and w/ an ecu tune, there is virtually no way to detonate unless you try to go w/ too large of a shot, or run it too many times w/o letting it cool. Buy a dry system is just like a wet system, just w/o the backup of additional fuel to help support it, so I still fail to see how a dry shot could be better than a wet setup (except for in the case of an ECU tune that is setup for a dry shot).

Assuming we were using two totally stock cars, the dry shot would have a higher risk factor since you are just shooting straight n20 into the manifold, and letting it go straight into whichever cylinder first (which could cause a large quantity to hit your cyl1, but leave cyl3 empty).....whereas a wet system, even though it has the same effect, it has additional fuel to help mix it up and not be such a concentrated shot....

still, please help to explain (w/o ecu tuning) how a dry shot is safer, since w/ an ecu tune, you could run damn near any setup, and thus invalidates that theory.

 

Now assuming you upped your injectors to compensate for the lack of a fogger nozzle, then yes, I could see how a dry shot could also be about equal in effeciency. I just fail to understand how:

(Nozzle + Fuel Injectors) less fuel = better

(Fogger Nozzle + Fuel Injectors) more fuel = worse

(edit: my statements are based on which is safer, not which is more effecient performance wise, I admit that a dry shot might give you a higher hp increase (which I don't know) but I'm still pretty sure a wet system is the safer route to go)

I don't intend this to be any arguement, just a discussion of the nature of the dry vs. wet systems.

 

...keep going i am taking notes here...

 

AAAHHHHH YOU'RE MISSING THE POINT ENTIRELY

The fuel injectors keep the cylinders firing within safe parameters UNDER THE CONDITION THAT THERE'S NO NITROUS INTRODUCED INTO THE SYSTEM. You ECU tune is for an engine running on air and fuel ONLY.

Nitrous Oxide is compressed air, by spraying nitrous, you're putting more AIR into the cylinder, and therefore you need more fuel so that you don't detonate. On a DRY system, the additional fuel needed comes directly from the fuel injectors. On a WET system, it's sprayed at the intake hoses, which will cause a BAD DISTRIBUTION of fuel over the 6 cylinders.

FOR SOME REAON, YOU THINK THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A DRY SYSTEM AND A WET SYSTEM IS WHETHER OR NOT THERE IS ADDITIONAL FUEL GOING INTO THE ENGINE. THIS IS WRONG, THE ONLY DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A WET AND DRY SYSTEM IS WHERE THE FUEL IS INJECTED. ON A DRY SYSTEM, IT'S INJECTED DIRECTLY THROUGH THE FUEL INJECTORS, WHILE ON A WET SYSTEM IT'S INJECTED AT THE INTAKE HOSES. I'VE ALREADY ESTABLISHED THAT INJECTING FUEL AT THE CYLINDER IS MUCH MORE EFFICIENT THAN INJECTING FUEL AT THE INTAKE HOSES, SO HOPEFULLY NOW YOU SEE WHY THE FUEL DISPERSION FROM A DRY SYSTEM WILL BE SAFER THAN FROM A WET SYSTEM.

When I say efficient, I don't mean only in terms of power, I mean efficient at keeping a precise air/fuel ratio which is needed for safe operation.

Please tell me you understood that.

Both systems provide additional fuel, but a dry system supplies the fuel MUCH more efficiently.

 

DRY SHOT WITH ADDITIONAL FUEL FROM THE INJECTORS IS ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS SAFER THAN A WET SHOT BECAUSE THE AIR/FUEL/NITROUS RATIOS ARE MORE CONSISTENT OVER ALL 6 CYLINDERS.

As I said, you WILL VERY LIKELY RUN LEAN on the rear cylinders (or at least have extremely varying air/fuel/nitrous ratios over the entire engine) with a wet shot because the additional fuel that the mixture needs will fall short of reaching back there. With a dry shot, every cylinder will get the exact amount of additional fuel that it NEEDS. A wet system cannot control where the correct amounts of fuel are going.

I'm not even looking at performance-wise, I ONLY look at safety. Because horsepower numbers don't mean **** if you can't keep doin git.

 

let me try explaining it this way.

facts:

1. fuel supplied directly from direct port fuel injectors (Z32 fuel injectors) will result in a more consistent air/fuel ratio over all cylinders when compared to a throttle-body-injection type of setup (like the 80's Camaro's with the 305cid TBI engines).

2. Nitrous Oxide is a compressed air. It provides more horsepower because when the Nitrogen and Oxygen splits at the proper temperature, the extra oxygen in the engine causes a condition similar to forced induction (it creats more air in the cylinder than if naturally aspirated). More air needs more fuel and will make more power.

3. Fuel is heavier than air, and this is why throttle-body injection is not as safe/efficient as direct port fuel injectiron. i.e. the fuel being injected at the front of the engine will not be evenly dispursed over all cylinder like it would with a direct port injection system.

4. Both a wet shot and a [properly done] dry shot provide additional fuel (because the extra air introduced from the nitrous system needs it to run safely), however, a wet system provides fuel like a throttle-body-injection setup whereas a dry shot will provide fuel through your direct port fuel injection system.


Now that I've stated those facts, do you see why every cylinder needs the exact amount of more fuel when nitrous is introduced into the system? And do you see why a dry shot will result in a more consistent air/fuel/nitrous ratio over all 6 cylinders?


Hopefully that does it.

Of course, if the dry shot is owned by some idiot who doesn't understand this, he's going to run it on a stock ECU program, and that'll detonate much more likely than a wet shot, but a dry shot is meant to be dyno tuned for the proper fuel compensation. The JWT Nitrous Kit for the Z32 is a dry shot with an ECU tune because Jim knows that this method is much safer than a wet shot.

This is quoting JWT's description of his system
"Most nitrous systems are wet, this is a dry system. The difference is that dry systems inject the nitrous into the intake manifold before fuel is added, rather than after. Dry advantages include equal delivery of fuel to all cylinders."

 

lol, ok ok, I only bothered to read up to your second post, It seems we both agree on the same thing, we are just saying it in different ways. You are saying that to run any nitrous w/o detonating, your going to need additional fuel (which you say should be through the injectors), and that the additional fuel from the nozzle (wet system) isn't sufficient enough to cover for additional fuel needed, I AGREE. I was simply just stating, w/ just the straight-out-of-the-box system, the wet is going to be safer to run, just because it happens to include the dual nozzle.

Now I TOTALLY agree, that the nozzle deal that they expect you to use is in all actuality a pretty cheap setup, to guarantee a safe and efficient system, the best method would be to run more fuel from the injectors (even farther to go w/ direct port spray), instead of the little nozzle (which would in fact make using the wet system rather pointless). So I can see what you are saying, and I agree, for a little more advanced system, upping the injectors (fuel pump too probably), and going w/ a straight dry system, is in fact a more simplistic/reliable system to go w/, but for the street tuner who just wants some quick bang, the wet system is the easiest slap on-and-go type setup that won't necessarily require additional parts (ie. bigger injectors, etc.).

EDIT: Going back and reading your third post, it sounds like you are suggesting that a dry system is a direct port system, there is a very large difference there, a dry system is just a straight spray through the intake, a wet system is spray and fuel through the intake, and then there is direct port that pwns all other sytems by injecting the spray directly into the cylinders (I'm not telling you, just stating the info for anyone who doesn't know the difference) w/ a direct port, and bigger injectors, that is the most effecient system available (just a little too pricey for me).

EDIT: Just IMO, even if I were to up the injectors, I would still probably use the wet system, its cheaper than direct port, and still would make me feel safer running both larger injectors, and fuel from the nozzle (I'd rather run rich than lean any day).

 

I never said a dry system was like a direct port nitrous injection system, I said the fuel delivery from a dry system uses the stock direct port fuel injection system instead of its own fuel jets. Both systems inject the nitrous into the intake hoses, but the wet system injects fuel there too (which is not an efficient way to provide fuel). The dry system gets its additional fuel from the injectors when it's done right.

 

wouldn't a dry system only get the additional fuel from the injectors if you put larger than stock replacements in? Or is there some way the ecu, or fpr, or something can detect that it needs to up the amount?

 

ummmm.... the fuel injectors aren't maxed out all the time... You can just increase the fuel injector duty cycle (with a different ECU or with an Air/Fuel Controller like an Apex-i AFC). You only need larger injectors if 100% duty cycle on the stock injectors isn't enough fuel for your needs.

the fact that you asked that tells me I'm probably wasting my time explaining all of this to you. Do some research, because apparently you don't have enough understanding of how the engine works to grasp all of this (no offense, but if you don't know how an injector works, how am I going to explain to you that you can increase the duty cycle to flow more fuel?)

 

ahh, ok, see, learned something new, I was under the vague impression that injectors are rated to only push so much at a time, and that to have more fuel, you would subsequently have to up the injector size (ignorance there). Never occured to me that you can just increase the fuel injector duty cycle. Well either way, dry system w/ an ecu tune = good, wet system w/ an ecu tune = good, direct port w/ an ecu tune = good, but any w/ stock components and the intake nozzle setup (minus the direct port) = uneven distribution.

I see where you say a dry system is good w/ an ecu tune, but why wouldn't a wet system w/ an ecu tune be just as effecient? Wouldn't you still be making the initial power, and w/ just extra fuel? (sorry, for dragging this on)

 

Wet systems are so popular because they don't need an ECU tune because people think they're getting enough fuel through that nozzle at the intake hose. And really, it is "enough" fuel, but it's not being evenly dispursed over all the cylinders and that's where the problem lies. It's much safer to have full control over fuel flow into the cylinders, and you can't do that by spraying fuel at an intake hose, you have to spray it directly at the cylinder (which is what the ECU does with the fuel injectors).

If you were to run an ECU program to compensate for the fuel that the nitrous needs, you'd pretty much have a dry shot that was running rich because you'd have too much fuel (the extra fuel coming from that nozzle would cause a rich condition). Too much fuel can be just as bad as not enough fuel, and it'll make even less power.


if an example using numbers would help, here's a rough example.

Say your nitrous system requires that you spray an extra 6 lb/min of fuel. With a dry shot, you'll get that extra 6 lb/min of fuel sprayed directly through your fuel injectors, which means each cylinder gets exactly 1 lb/min of extra fuel. On a dry system, all the 6 lbs/min of fuel is coming into the intake hoses. Since it's heavier than air, your front cylinder might get 1.5 lb/min extra, your middle cylinders might get the proper 1 lb/min of extra fuel, and your rear cylinders are going to run lean when they only get the remaining .5 lb/min each. Since the 5 and 6 cylinders are only getting half the extra fuel they need, they're going to detonate.

Now if you had an ECU program that gives you that extra 6 lb/min of fuel through your injectors, and you sprayed 6 lb/min of fuel at the intake hoses, look what happens. Your first two cylinders get 2.5 lb/min of fuel each, your middle 2 cylinders each get 2 lb/min of fuel, and your rear cylinders now get an additional 1.5 lb/min of fuel each... that would cause lots of problems: misfires, worn bearings, worn piston rings, and all the other things that cylinder fuel wash causes.

 

you don't have to be a punk, I know damn well how an injector works, and what a duty cycle is, I've researched nitrous systems more than most people, so stop talking down to me like you are high and mighty because you know something...I started this off as a discussion to learn something, not an arugement to get pissed off...instead of being asinine, why not try explaining it....

you have obviously said all you had in mind, so lets keep the smartassness out of it OK?

 

That all makes sense, I appreciate the info, obviously i'm brighter than a rock, because it turns out I REALLY AM VERY capable of grasping this ever-so complex theory.....

 

lol, if you're so smart, then why do you ask such dumb f*cking questions? I said "no offense" because I was simply explaining that this much just not be worth explaining if you don't understand what I'm saying... and apparently you really don't understand, or at least are having a lot of trouble doing so.

Like I said in my first post, don't say otherwise unless you have a damn good argument. Your argument wasn't even good, it was based on a misunderstanding of what a dry system is, but I tried explaining it anyway, and it's taking you forever to catch on.
apparently not, hotshot...

I never wanted to start an argument with that, but your comment there was pretty ignorant.

 

whatever, this is a stupid "argument"...maybe you can go back to my first post:
I asked because obviously I was not sure, and was looking for answers, so I stated what I knew, and was looking for some mature informative feedback on what it was you were stating, did you even read this:
Yet you felt the need to insult my intelligence w/ no basis of accusation.....so really, who's acting like the "hotshot".
I think I know what is going on here:


Grow up, you just turned a simple discussion into an argument...nice one tough guy

 

.... right.... lol. Who's the one being mature now? I didn't insult your intelligence until you got defensive.

it wasn't an argument, I was saying that if you don't understand how stuff works, I'm going to have trouble explaining everything.

Honestly, I had to touch on how a fuel injector works to explain to you why a dry system is better than a wet system... I was hoping I wouldn't have had to do that.

 

well I'm sorry to burden you w/ the opportunity to empower another's knowledge, even if it was at the expense of having to type a few keys and keep from being a jerkoff....thanks for being rude instead of having some patience and explaining something that (in your own words) "is so simple".

This wasn't intended to be any sort of a debate, but I guess there is no helping that on the internet...

 

nawwwwws pwnts me