Please Help! crazy clutch issues!
02-26-2009, 06:53 PM
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Please Help! crazy clutch issues!
I know i've got a clutch thread out already, but this warrants its own thread. sorry it's long, but PLEASE help!
back ground: i just changed the clutch to a new exedy clutch. new pressure plate, disk, TOB, and pilot bushing. everything looked the same as the parts that i took off. i also put a used fidanza flywheel on. no problems with it. pressure plate and flywheel are properly torqued, and the pilot bushing is pushed in to exactly where the old one was (not too far in the crank).
symptoms: as soon as i got everything put back together, i pushed the clutch in, and got nothing. nothing at all. i bled it, got very little response, lots of air, and the air never stopped. so, i said "the master is bad" (because i had already replaced the slave when i got the car, so it's not too old). so i got a new master from napa. put it on, adjusted the clutch out to hopefully make sure that the TOB was getting pushed far enough. the old master looked pretty bad. lots of sludge and stuff
anyway, back to the symptoms. the master change made the pedel instantly feel better. after a pump or two, the clutch felt normal. so after bleeding (start at bottom, then top, back to bottom, back to top, then bottom again), the clutch still goes strait to the floor on the first pump. after 2 or 3, it feels fairly normal. watching it underneath, the fork is getting pushed back a fair amount. about 1/4-1/2 inch away from the back of the hole that it's in. so i look and look for problems. i check that the TOB is not on backwards. it's not. it's fine. i make sure the fork is touching in all the right places. looks fine as far as i can see. the slave is not leaking. then, i pushed on the fork with my hand. i find that i can push it about 1/4-1/2 inch back, by hand, without seeing ANY movement from the TOB. then, the slave cylinder extends because it's under pressure, meets the fork, and takes pressure to be pushed back.
ideas: in summary, the clutch takes a pump to get feeling good. after being let to sit for 3 seconds, it goes back to the floor upon the first pump. there is no more air in the line. so, it's possible that the slave is bad. i expect first thing tomorrow i will be running out to buy a slave, and maybe a new line.
other than that, i can push the clutch fork back almost a half inch with my hand before it even moves the TOB. this can possibly explain why it takes a pump to get the clutch pressurized enough to push the fork back that far. BUT! after a few pumps, the peddle does feel exactly how it should, and always has. the fork gets pushed back to the same spot that it always has (going by visual memory), and the clutch is seemingly dis-engaged. tomorrow, i will be checking to see if it is disengaged enough to allow slip. i'll test by starting the engine and pushing the clutch in and seeing if i can make the sound of the spinning front shaft go away.
please throw some ideas at me. it's strange. the fact that i can push the fork by hand is strange. but the fact that after a pump, i can get it to feel normal is strange. i don't see what i could have put back together wrong. i even tested it while the tranny was on the floor to make sure everything was moving right. it's such a simple mechanism!
back ground: i just changed the clutch to a new exedy clutch. new pressure plate, disk, TOB, and pilot bushing. everything looked the same as the parts that i took off. i also put a used fidanza flywheel on. no problems with it. pressure plate and flywheel are properly torqued, and the pilot bushing is pushed in to exactly where the old one was (not too far in the crank).
symptoms: as soon as i got everything put back together, i pushed the clutch in, and got nothing. nothing at all. i bled it, got very little response, lots of air, and the air never stopped. so, i said "the master is bad" (because i had already replaced the slave when i got the car, so it's not too old). so i got a new master from napa. put it on, adjusted the clutch out to hopefully make sure that the TOB was getting pushed far enough. the old master looked pretty bad. lots of sludge and stuff
anyway, back to the symptoms. the master change made the pedel instantly feel better. after a pump or two, the clutch felt normal. so after bleeding (start at bottom, then top, back to bottom, back to top, then bottom again), the clutch still goes strait to the floor on the first pump. after 2 or 3, it feels fairly normal. watching it underneath, the fork is getting pushed back a fair amount. about 1/4-1/2 inch away from the back of the hole that it's in. so i look and look for problems. i check that the TOB is not on backwards. it's not. it's fine. i make sure the fork is touching in all the right places. looks fine as far as i can see. the slave is not leaking. then, i pushed on the fork with my hand. i find that i can push it about 1/4-1/2 inch back, by hand, without seeing ANY movement from the TOB. then, the slave cylinder extends because it's under pressure, meets the fork, and takes pressure to be pushed back.
ideas: in summary, the clutch takes a pump to get feeling good. after being let to sit for 3 seconds, it goes back to the floor upon the first pump. there is no more air in the line. so, it's possible that the slave is bad. i expect first thing tomorrow i will be running out to buy a slave, and maybe a new line.
other than that, i can push the clutch fork back almost a half inch with my hand before it even moves the TOB. this can possibly explain why it takes a pump to get the clutch pressurized enough to push the fork back that far. BUT! after a few pumps, the peddle does feel exactly how it should, and always has. the fork gets pushed back to the same spot that it always has (going by visual memory), and the clutch is seemingly dis-engaged. tomorrow, i will be checking to see if it is disengaged enough to allow slip. i'll test by starting the engine and pushing the clutch in and seeing if i can make the sound of the spinning front shaft go away.
please throw some ideas at me. it's strange. the fact that i can push the fork by hand is strange. but the fact that after a pump, i can get it to feel normal is strange. i don't see what i could have put back together wrong. i even tested it while the tranny was on the floor to make sure everything was moving right. it's such a simple mechanism!
02-26-2009, 07:30 PM
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i've now looked through parts diagrams of the mechanism, and i can't see anything that i could possibly have put back together wrong. the ideas that i have as possibilities are the slave cylinder being bad, and the pressure plate and/or TOB being incorrect parts. though, none of these fit all the symptoms as i can see it. the bad slave doesn't explain why i can push the fork with my hand. the incorrect parts don't explain why the clutch goes to the floor on the first pump, but then gets pressure. also, quick visual comparisons showed all the new parts to be very similar to the old. the disk had a different number of springs in it, and the cover of the pressure plate was shaped slightly differently, but it did all fit just fine.
02-26-2009, 07:36 PM
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indeed. it is only about a year and a half old though. i'll try to get one tomorrow, but i may have to wait til saturday.
i really hope that does it. but i'm really doubting it. it's not leaking or anything.
this is a long shot, but would the boot coming off the slave cylinder cause any problems? it came off this time and won't really go back on how it's supposed to.
i really hope that does it. but i'm really doubting it. it's not leaking or anything.
this is a long shot, but would the boot coming off the slave cylinder cause any problems? it came off this time and won't really go back on how it's supposed to.
02-26-2009, 07:58 PM
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... the boot shouldn't make a difference, as it is sealed internally. It sounds to me like you still have air in the system, to be honest. How are you bleeding it? It is possible to do it wrong...
02-26-2009, 08:06 PM
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yeah, i've had a lot of experience bleeding improperly lol. what i'm doing is letting dad pump the peddle a few times, he holds it, i crack the bleeder, close it before the fluid stops coming, and he lets off. the reservoir is topped off every so often so it doesn't run out. like said, we started at the bottom. with the top, where dad was able to hold the bleeder under the fluid, we left it open while i pumped it several times in a row, until the reservoir was low. we kept going and going until we stopped getting air. we'll see. i'm pretty nervous about it.
what do you think about the play in the lever though? i shouldn't be able to push that at all by hand right?
what do you think about the play in the lever though? i shouldn't be able to push that at all by hand right?
02-26-2009, 08:24 PM
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No, you still have air in the system.
That method, while it works well for the brakes, does not work as well for the clutch. Have him pump the clutch and hold it down. Open the screw, have him pump the pedal three times and hold it in (this is gonna squeeze a lot of fluid out, so make sure to watch the level closely). Close the screw. Repeat 2 or 3 times. After that, it should be straight fluid that comes out every time he presses the pedal down. Don't bother doing it at the slave cylinder, just do it at the screw on the passenger's side of the bay (air rises, so that is usually sufficient). I know it sounds like this method won't work because it seems like it'd draw air in, but trust me... the physics of the system and him holding the pedal in when you close the screw is going to prevent that. You know I'd never mislead you.
That method, while it works well for the brakes, does not work as well for the clutch. Have him pump the clutch and hold it down. Open the screw, have him pump the pedal three times and hold it in (this is gonna squeeze a lot of fluid out, so make sure to watch the level closely). Close the screw. Repeat 2 or 3 times. After that, it should be straight fluid that comes out every time he presses the pedal down. Don't bother doing it at the slave cylinder, just do it at the screw on the passenger's side of the bay (air rises, so that is usually sufficient). I know it sounds like this method won't work because it seems like it'd draw air in, but trust me... the physics of the system and him holding the pedal in when you close the screw is going to prevent that. You know I'd never mislead you.
Last edited by ZLover4Life; 02-26-2009 at 08:26 PM.
02-26-2009, 08:45 PM
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well we did a bit of that too.
"with the top, where dad was able to hold the bleeder under the fluid, we left it open while i pumped it several times in a row, until the reservoir was low."
that's what you meant right? we didn't do it with just three pumps though. we did it until the reservoir got low. i know you wouldn't mislead me! you really think that there could be air in there still?
"with the top, where dad was able to hold the bleeder under the fluid, we left it open while i pumped it several times in a row, until the reservoir was low."
that's what you meant right? we didn't do it with just three pumps though. we did it until the reservoir got low. i know you wouldn't mislead me! you really think that there could be air in there still?
02-26-2009, 08:50 PM
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If the pedal has insufficient pressure, that is because the hydraulics are not compressing properly... unless the piston in the master cylinder isn't doing its job, it almost has to be air in the system. What kind of fluid are you using? And are you doing the bleeding with the car on or off?
02-26-2009, 09:06 PM
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the car is off, and this time i ended up with napa dot 4 "heavy duty".
"If the pedal has insufficient pressure, that is because the hydraulics are not compressing properly..."
in this case, not necessarily. that's why i bring up the fact that i can push the fork with my hand. an explanation that comes to mind is that perhaps the first stroke goes to the floor because the cylinder only pushes the fork through that easy bit, and after that, it has pressure built up to push it the rest of the way.
to get that idea out of the way, is it safe to say that if one stroke is different than another, it means air? i guess if it even had the capability to build pressure after the first stroke, that could mean that there was air. then the play in the fork wouldn't matter.
"If the pedal has insufficient pressure, that is because the hydraulics are not compressing properly..."
in this case, not necessarily. that's why i bring up the fact that i can push the fork with my hand. an explanation that comes to mind is that perhaps the first stroke goes to the floor because the cylinder only pushes the fork through that easy bit, and after that, it has pressure built up to push it the rest of the way.
to get that idea out of the way, is it safe to say that if one stroke is different than another, it means air? i guess if it even had the capability to build pressure after the first stroke, that could mean that there was air. then the play in the fork wouldn't matter.
02-26-2009, 09:17 PM
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the car is off, and this time i ended up with napa dot 4 "heavy duty".
"If the pedal has insufficient pressure, that is because the hydraulics are not compressing properly..."
in this case, not necessarily. that's why i bring up the fact that i can push the fork with my hand. an explanation that comes to mind is that perhaps the first stroke goes to the floor because the cylinder only pushes the fork through that easy bit, and after that, it has pressure built up to push it the rest of the way.
"If the pedal has insufficient pressure, that is because the hydraulics are not compressing properly..."
in this case, not necessarily. that's why i bring up the fact that i can push the fork with my hand. an explanation that comes to mind is that perhaps the first stroke goes to the floor because the cylinder only pushes the fork through that easy bit, and after that, it has pressure built up to push it the rest of the way.
to get that idea out of the way, is it safe to say that if one stroke is different than another, it means air? i guess if it even had the capability to build pressure after the first stroke, that could mean that there was air. then the play in the fork wouldn't matter.
If there is play in the fork, I think something is improperly installed.
Last edited by ZLover4Life; 02-26-2009 at 09:19 PM.
02-26-2009, 09:20 PM
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yeah it does sound like it. the play that i'm referring too may just be the TOB getting to the pressure plate.
well, at least now i'm sure that there is still air in there. on that note, who has plans for a good homemade one person bleeder? i'm sick of needing two people. i'm willing to buy the stuff to make one tomorrow
well, at least now i'm sure that there is still air in there. on that note, who has plans for a good homemade one person bleeder? i'm sick of needing two people. i'm willing to buy the stuff to make one tomorrow
02-26-2009, 09:24 PM
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uh oh... here it comes! It's been a while..!!
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=speed+bleeder
OMG... I just thought of this. The steel pin at the top of the slave cylinder is gone, isn't it? If the rubber boot isn't there, there's nothing to hold it in! THAT is your problem. There is a steel pin that the slave cylinder pushes into the fork. If the clutch was pressed AT ALL while the slave cylinder was off the trans, that will pop out. And if the rubber seal wasn't good to begin with, it could've just fallen out.
I was assuming you had everything installed properly. lol
Plus side - cheap part... something like $28 from AutoZone for the slave cylinder.
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=speed+bleeder
OMG... I just thought of this. The steel pin at the top of the slave cylinder is gone, isn't it? If the rubber boot isn't there, there's nothing to hold it in! THAT is your problem. There is a steel pin that the slave cylinder pushes into the fork. If the clutch was pressed AT ALL while the slave cylinder was off the trans, that will pop out. And if the rubber seal wasn't good to begin with, it could've just fallen out.
I was assuming you had everything installed properly. lol
Plus side - cheap part... something like $28 from AutoZone for the slave cylinder.
Last edited by ZLover4Life; 02-26-2009 at 09:31 PM.
02-26-2009, 09:45 PM
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you mean the pin that comes out of the slave to push the lever coming out of the bell housing? the pretty big pin that comes through the boot? yeah that's there lol. when i took the slave off, it all fell off, so i was sure to put it back on when i was putting it together.
http://www.bmw-m.net/TechProc/bleeder.htm
that's the bleeder i'm making. it took me a while to find one that i liked! i'm a bit confused on it though... (haha! imagine that!). you bleed the clutch without ever pushing the peddle? the fluid just runs right through the cylinder without ever moving the piston?
http://www.bmw-m.net/TechProc/bleeder.htm
that's the bleeder i'm making. it took me a while to find one that i liked! i'm a bit confused on it though... (haha! imagine that!). you bleed the clutch without ever pushing the peddle? the fluid just runs right through the cylinder without ever moving the piston?
02-26-2009, 09:57 PM
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The only air that is of concern is in the lines... the piston just moves fluid into the lines to help push the air out, so if you have an alternative means of running fluid through the lines, the pedal wouldn't have to be pressed.
If that pin is there, and pressed against the fork firmly, how are you able to wiggle the fork still? It should hardly move at all (maybe a couple millimeters, but no more). If the fork is still moving, I'm still thinking something isn't installed right. Even with no fluid in the system, a fully retracted slave cylinder is positioned so that it presses against the fork.
If that pin is there, and pressed against the fork firmly, how are you able to wiggle the fork still? It should hardly move at all (maybe a couple millimeters, but no more). If the fork is still moving, I'm still thinking something isn't installed right. Even with no fluid in the system, a fully retracted slave cylinder is positioned so that it presses against the fork.
02-26-2009, 10:02 PM
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i push it as though i'm pressing the clutch. push it back, and it goes. that's the worry. i can't think of anything that could be wrong to allow that. perhaps it is just normal play.
all in all, i've got a new outlook on it now. tomorrow, i'm going to make sure that there is no air in the lines, and that the slave is ok. when i have the clutch working predictably, i'll worry about if there is a mechanical problem. it looks like there is, but i really can't think of anything to go wrong. it's as simle as a sea-saw, so i'm thinking it's probably fine. i'll take a video of this thing tomorrow though.
all in all, i've got a new outlook on it now. tomorrow, i'm going to make sure that there is no air in the lines, and that the slave is ok. when i have the clutch working predictably, i'll worry about if there is a mechanical problem. it looks like there is, but i really can't think of anything to go wrong. it's as simle as a sea-saw, so i'm thinking it's probably fine. i'll take a video of this thing tomorrow though.
02-26-2009, 10:15 PM
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So you're saying you can push the fork in just like the slave cylinder does? Not supposed to... that slave cylinder exerts MUCH more force on the fork to push it - you shouldn't be able to do it easily by hand (should require a lot of force).
02-26-2009, 11:57 PM
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... bleeding the system won't change how the fork behaves... I understand wanting to exhaust options before another trans removal, but I think you're just delaying the inevitable. Good luck, either way.
02-27-2009, 04:37 AM
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yeah that fork shouldnt move by hand at all i just did my slave and i had to push on my fork a little just to get the new slave to line up and bolt on correctly.
why dont you just go buy one of these?
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=39522
they go on sale all the time for lke 20 bucks.
i would just pull the tranny one more time and make sure everything is correct sounds like something inst right and i would just replace the slave too that way you know everthing is done. you said you got some nasty **** out of the master right? well if that **** was in the master then that **** is in you whole system and that **** could have messed up the slave. just a thought
why dont you just go buy one of these?
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=39522
they go on sale all the time for lke 20 bucks.
i would just pull the tranny one more time and make sure everything is correct sounds like something inst right and i would just replace the slave too that way you know everthing is done. you said you got some nasty **** out of the master right? well if that **** was in the master then that **** is in you whole system and that **** could have messed up the slave. just a thought
02-27-2009, 05:32 AM
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^^^ i'm making one today. should be pretty cheap if i can find a sprayer for the right price. i may find a used one.
zlover, lol yes, i'm exhausting options before another trans removal lol. that job was so hateful.
zlover, lol yes, i'm exhausting options before another trans removal lol. that job was so hateful.
02-27-2009, 06:00 PM
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i bled that POS for about an hour and a half today. so, either the slave is bad (i didn't change it. i really thought i could get the air out), or i'm just a retard and can't bleed stuff. i'll probably get a slave tomorrow. getting this thing fixed is going to wipe me out. seriously.
the one person bleeder did work just fine for a few seconds, then it just stopped. i can't figure it out. it kept the pressure up, but it just stopped bleeding right.
the one person bleeder did work just fine for a few seconds, then it just stopped. i can't figure it out. it kept the pressure up, but it just stopped bleeding right.
02-27-2009, 06:28 PM
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i think your problem is
A) that POS exedy pressure plate is wrong or just made so wrong the TOB doesnt make it to the pressure plate once the slave reaches full travel (also i've heard of some clutches needing some sort of extension/adapter rod or fork or something i really can't remember the details but i know with the ACT 2600 clutch for a DSM you need it not sure if it helps relieve some pressure off your pedal feel thanks to leverage or it needs it cause otherwise not enough slave cylinder travel is available)
B) your hydraulics really are that F'ed up but i really doubt it
C) your screwed up installing your fork/TOB setup
D) you put the clutch disk in upside down causing the pressure plate to touch it much earlier (cause the spring side if against the flywheel will hold the disk away from the flywheel surface) which will once tightening the pressure plate ontop of it will cause it to automatically depress the pressure plate so the the fingers are now all the way in so the TOB can't reach it AND the car's tranny will constantly be engaged
also when you pump the clutch it probably makes the slave over extend the rod making it feel like there's proper pressure once the fork and TOB FINALLY meet the pressure plate fingers.
any takes on my theories?
A) that POS exedy pressure plate is wrong or just made so wrong the TOB doesnt make it to the pressure plate once the slave reaches full travel (also i've heard of some clutches needing some sort of extension/adapter rod or fork or something i really can't remember the details but i know with the ACT 2600 clutch for a DSM you need it not sure if it helps relieve some pressure off your pedal feel thanks to leverage or it needs it cause otherwise not enough slave cylinder travel is available)
B) your hydraulics really are that F'ed up but i really doubt it
C) your screwed up installing your fork/TOB setup
D) you put the clutch disk in upside down causing the pressure plate to touch it much earlier (cause the spring side if against the flywheel will hold the disk away from the flywheel surface) which will once tightening the pressure plate ontop of it will cause it to automatically depress the pressure plate so the the fingers are now all the way in so the TOB can't reach it AND the car's tranny will constantly be engaged
also when you pump the clutch it probably makes the slave over extend the rod making it feel like there's proper pressure once the fork and TOB FINALLY meet the pressure plate fingers.
any takes on my theories?
