Hey bud, we are not pushing or forcing you to believe anything. Like I said, everyone has freewill. That is how we were created. You can accept it or don't. We are not putting you in a corner, and making you believe what we do. When I tell people here and there, about my beliefs. I just slide it in the conversation, like it is a sample. I do not preach to them, or anything like that. If they don't believe or accept it. I leave it at that, and I know I did my part in telling them the gospel. But if they want to hear or learn more. I am happy and willing, to guide them in the right direction. Or if I honestly can't answer a question, or do not have the knowledge. I will point them to somebody that can. It is not my job or purpose to cram it down somebody's throat. But I can't keep it inside me either, it is a lot of pressure. Like a radiator that needs release, and you slowly open the cap. Releasing the pressure slowly, and it helps a great deal. If I left all I know inside, and never let it out. I would burst like throwing a rod in an engine.

So all that said, please don't be offended. That is not our purpose starting this thread. Everyone has the right to their own opinion. That is what makes life great, but if you have faith. And believe in the true CREATOR, believe me. You will have an inner piece, I have had it since I got saved at 5 years old. Through all the hardships, and trials. I have managed to get through with God's help. I mean I almost ended my life 10 years ago. I was at my wits end, but God was there. And showed me there is a much better way to deal with it. And He pulled me out, and until I admitted that I needed help. I continued to struggle, getting locked up. And my life really didn't turn around until '97. But it didn't get better until '02. When I got my own place, that was a great feeling. Anyway I think that is all I can tell you. And by no means, am I shoving or pushing you to believe. You do have the choice to go on this thread or not to go on it. So if you are offended, why do you keep coming back? You have the choice to not read or be on this thread. Believe me, if I didn't like a certain thing or thread. I wouldn't bother going on it. Because then it would sound, like I am on a soapbox. And that is not right to slam people on their opinions, and or beliefs.

Enough said, all I know is Christmas is more than gifts, and money, and greed.

"Jesus is the Reason for the Season"

 

RPS, Your opinion here is as important as anyone else's. Just because it's not the most popular one doesn't mean it's less important! That's what forums are all about. Remember "Point / Counter Point" on SNL years ago?? Older guys will. Anyways, the "point" is that your able to make your statement or stand your ground without retribution. Noone will deny you your right to free speech here! That would go against what this board is about. Say what you want, and be respected for it. It's just a post about Christmas and it's meaning to people, whether it's religious or not, nothing more....

Happy Holidays to you and yours!

Carl

 

RPS, Wildman is right about a lot of htings. Why is it ok for you (or other people of other faiths, non-faiths, etc) to express what they believe and that's ok (which I consider it to be actually the good thing to do), but it's not ok for a believer to express what they believe without it becoming an "attempt at conversion." I just want to have a discussion that encourages some, intrgues others, and reminds others about what this season is all about. Wildman is also right about why we believe in God. Why I do, I've communed with Him. I don't have a religion, I have a personal relationship with the God of the universe. He's there and I know it because I've heard Him, felt Him, and have been guided by Him. Tons of illusions, Billions of coincidences.....again, it takes more faith to believe this than to believe that it's God. My g/f of a year and half just broke up with me late Friday night. I'm heartbroken and mourning a loss, but I'm joyful. I'm living above the circumstances. Why, because the grace of God. IT's nothign I can do on my own. Also, I think you;re right....humans definitely don't understand how everything works or how the universe works, but that's why there's God. He understands. We have an ant's perspective, but he has a creator's perspective. I can't name how many times in my life that I've been going in one direction that seemed great and was convicted by God or moved by Him by some force into another direction. Well, it almost always turns out, the direction I end up in is great adn teh one I was heading in was to doom. duh duh duh (sorry, sounded dramatic...haha) Coincidence or guidance from a creator's perspective?

 

This wasn't a yay or nay untill you gave your opinion and called it a yay or nay. But that's okay, in fact it's great! The day may come when you will need Him in your life. Even Einstien (a Jew) with all his great understanding of the universe believed in God because with all the science there is no other explanation.

 

i have no problem with this thread, or chrisrtians. what i have a problem with is the people who try to shove their ideas down your throat, but will not let you state your side of the argument. in my opinion, not trying to offend anyone, just stating my opinion like everyone else, organized religion seems to me to have been devised as a tool to control the masses. people inherently need to be able to explain things, and god is a rather convienient exlpanation. then use commandmants and such to get people to do the "right" things, and also give their money, all without question. as an example, i use the catholic church (no offense, just opinion). the catholic church commands ENOURMOUS wealth, so much so that there should not be a starving child on this planet. yet they keep it all locked up for themselves. that certainly does not sound very brotherly to me (opinion, not offense). the other major thing that turns me off of organized religion is the fact that most of the wasrs throughout the past have been over religion. killing mass ammounts of people in the name of "god", because your idea of god is very slightly different from theirs does not make sense. and i am not talking about just muslims or arabs or anything. the catholic church commited many, many atrocities throughout the ages, all in the name of god (no offense, but it is a fact). now, i am not saying it is all bad. religion gives people some good values to live their lives by, as well as helping them cope with hardship. personally, i dont believe in anything, i think i can be a good person without religion. i am not saying i have all the answers, or that there deffinately is or is not a higher power. i'm saying it doesnt matter to me, and until SIGNIFICANT proof, in my eyes, is provided one way or the other, i will continue not to care.

 

I'm with you 90% on that one. I want no part of organized religion. The last Pope apoligized for the crusades in whch many thousands of Muslims were slautered in the name of god. To little to late. I do not agree with them for the same reasons, but I understand why they hate us.

 

entropy, you're right about organized religion...I think it's diverted from teh real meaning of Christianity (love). That's why I say, I don't have a religion, I have a personal relationship. Let me try to explain my thought on the commandments...why God put them in place, etc. Well, just like a worldly parent, tehy can be a good parent or a bad/neglectful parent. God is a good parent adn has rules in place to protect us from harm like any good parent will. He also gives us free will to make our own decisions. Also, keep in mind that the rules have changed a little from the old to the new testament. Just like a good parent here on earth, you ahve to change the rules to protect some and have to dismiss rules that aren't necessary for others. Christianity isn't about rules, it's about love and the rules are God's love in the form of protection. Also, I agree, the church and God are two differen't things. Related, but diffferent. The church is lead by people...fallible people. And it is indeed fallible if the church is not being allowed to be lead by God. You've brouhgt up some good points that often dissapoint me sometimes. It's sad b/c it does set an example that's negative...though it's not. Thanks for sharing your thoughts, entropy!

 

I'm sorry for anything that I may have said that offended anyone, but please just understand, that there are a lot of people who do not agree or believe what you do, and trying to make them understand by preaching (which I'm not saying any of you did, but it DOES happen....a lot), or incorporating the idea into an otherwise non-religious matter could be enough to offend some people.

I have no problems with discussing religion, or Jesus, or even much problem doing it here, just so long as I don't have to log on and see "Jesus is the reason for the Season"...THAT is a one sided point of view, and that is what bothers me, I don't care if it is "Religion is the reason for the Season" or "Christmas is for Jesus" that's all ok by me, but the notion of just blatantly labeling anything for Jesus, is beyond my moral patience. That is where I got offended. Sorry.

This is the post that I should have started off with (entropy's), I agree with it 100%, I may have non-belief ideas, but it doesn't make me a non-believer (even though I stated my position as an atheist, it should be more agnostic). All I believe is that religion is (like entropy said) a tool for the masses, greed, and war, and until we can look beyond that, we may never understand anything greater.

I wish you all the happiest of holidays, with your friends and families, but please, can you just change the name of this thread to something less biased?

 

i myself dont especially care for the title, but its the off topic forum, so who cares. this is a public forum, like walking down the street. i dont tell churches to put away their crosses and nativity scenes because they spread a message that i dont agree with. i appreciate it as an expression of free thought, and leave it at that. when the pledge of aliegence was said at the beginning of class when i was is school, i never told them to stop because its not something believed in. i just remained seated and chose not to participate. had they tried to force me to participate, i would then have had a problem. i had a few teachers ask me to stand up, but after explaining to them why i stayed seated, they usually left it at that. now boyscouts was a different story entirely. i was unaware that it was a group that supported christianity (i was like 10), and i remember once at a camp, i didnt participate in some prayer, and everyone was mortified. i cant remember how many people talked to me that night, and they told my folks when we got back. that really bugged me, and still does to this day. why cant people just let others be with their beliefs or lack thereof?

 

Quoted, I can really understand that, been in the same sort of situation, it's not very fun.....

 

There's weird situations for anyone from any setting in any setting. This thread is named what it is because it is what I believe. Like said before, denying anyone the right to free speech and expression of religion is just as offensive as teh next action. I thank you guys for sharing your beliefs and I think it's great that we can talk about it. I just hope that you remember rps, that when you don't want to hear about/read about/see anything remotely different than what you believe, it's even more close minded. I just want you to enjoy a good discussion. Your beliefs most likely won't change and that's perfectly fine. That's not the point. The point is to aknowledge what I believe. In america, yes, Jesus is the reason for the season. "Religion is the reason for the season" does not express what this thread is about in any way shape or form....relationship, not religion. "Christmas is for Jesus"...what's the difference? The season that the phrase is alluding to is the Christmas season, it just happens to be catchy when you say it like that. If you're offended that easily, you must have had a bad experience and I truly want to apologize in behalf of the God I worship. Sometimes one bad egg ruins people's vision of the whole dozen. Christians mess up sooo often and it doesn't reflect christianity, it reflects those people and taht's it. I truly hope that I can restore your vision in the community that I belong to. It hurts me to know that people from my community of faith has hurt people b/c of their own pride and immaturity.

 

Well religion to me, is really nothing. Religion is something you do every day. Like brushing your teeth, taking a shower going to work etcc... I am not religious, and I am non-denomination. Away from all the garbage denominations. (no offense to anybody) I believe in the Lord Jesus Christ the Savior, God, and the Creator of everything. I believe what the Bible says, and most of the stuff written in Revelation, Daniel, Jude, and some other books. Is happening right now, as we speak. No joke, especially in the middle east. Hard times there, with the contant fighting, and wars. Which are called Holy Wars. And it has been raging since the Bible times. And probably before that. Anyway just stating what I stand on. And please nobody take offense to it. That is why we have the freedom of speech.

 

I'm not what is considered a religous person either, I do have my beliefs. Without someone no matter who it was watching over me I probably wouldn't be here either. I have no problem with the name of the thread, in fact I posted earlier the letter from Jesus. I liked the letter and hoped others did too. If you find the thread title offensive don't read it, you have that choice, but don't stifle someone elses opinion when they respect yours. Many of us have fought and many have given their lives to give you that choice.
No one is forcing their beliefs on you they are stating their opinion and belief. I do have a problem with the fact that my children were not allowed to state their beliefs by saying the pledge of alligance or to say a morning prayer because it might offend some one else. What about them being offended because they weren't allowed their right to do so. Life is a two way street everyones rights and beliefs should be respected. The person that didn't believe in the pledge and/or prayer had the choice to not do so.
Hey but then I have a problem with the flag flying at night, because the American flag should not be flown at night except in battle. That's the way I was taught and that is my belief. My buddy, in Los Osos and I were the ones that took the flag down at night all thru school when I was in California.
Just because someone is stating their belief in a conversation, it doesn't mean they are trying to convert or force their religion on you. Now when you have someone force there way into your home and you have a sick person on their death bed and they are insistant they need to pray for you or for the sick person, now that's forcing your belief and/or religion on you. And yeah that happened to us 3 days before my dad passed. The woman was one of our bankers and she is no longer with that bank. We never knew she was that religous, she became fanatical and insistent she had to pray over my father for us.
I may have rambled here, but you know us old men have a habit of doing that.

 

Here's another good Christmas story. Read it if you want if not pass it up. Had to use 2 posts because it was so long

The old man sat in his gas station on a cold Christmas Eve. He hadn't been anywhere in years since his wife had passed away. It was just another day to him. He didn't hate Christmas, just couldn't find a reason to celebrate. He was sitting there looking at the snow that had been falling for the last hour and wondering what it was all about when the door opened and a homeless man stepped through.

Instead of throwing the man out, Old George as he was known by his customers, told the man to come and sit by the heater and warm up. "Thank you, but I don't mean to intrude," said the stranger. "I see you're busy, I'll just go." "Not without something hot in your belly." George said.

He turned and opened a wide mouth Thermos and handed it to the stranger. "It ain't much, but it's hot and tasty, "Stew ... made it myself. When you're done, there's coffee and it's fresh."

Just at that moment he heard the "ding" of the driveway bell. "Excuse me, be right back," George said. There in the driveway was an old '53 Chevy. Steam was rolling out of the front. The driver was panicked. "Mister can you help me!" said the driver, with a deep Spanish accent. "My wife is with child and my car is broken."

George opened the hood. It was bad. The block looked cracked from the cold, the car was dead. "You ain't going in this thing," George said as he turned away.

"But Mister, please help ..." The door of the office closed behind George as he went inside. He went to the office wall and got the keys to his old truck, and went back outside. He walked around the building, opened the garage, started the truck and drove it around to where the couple was waiting. "Here, take my truck," he said. "She ain't the best thing you ever looked at, but she runs real good."

George helped put the woman in the truck and watched as it sped off into the night. He turned and walked back inside the office. "Glad I gave 'em the truck, their tires were shot too. That 'ol truck has brand new ........" George thought he was talking to the stranger, but the man had gone. The Thermos was on the desk, empty, with a used coffee cup beside it. "Well, at least he got something in his belly," George thought.

George went back outside to see if the old Chevy would start. It cranked slowly, but it started. He pulled it into the garage where the truck had been. He thought he would tinker with it for something to do. Christmas Eve meant no customers. He discovered the the block hadn't cracked, it was just the bottom hose on the radiator. "Well, shoot, I can fix this," he said to himself. So he put a new one on.

"Those tires ain't gonna get 'em through the winter either." He took the snow treads off of his wife's old Lincoln. They were like new and he wasn't going to drive the car anyway.

As he was working, he heard shots being fired. He ran outside and beside a police car an officer lay on the cold ground. Bleeding from the left shoulder, the officer moaned, "Please help me."

George helped the officer inside as he remembered the training he had received in the Army as a medic. He knew the wound needed attention. "Pressure to stop the bleeding," he thought. The uniform company had been there that morning and had left clean shop towels. He used those and duct tape to bind the wound. "Hey, they say duct tape can fix anythin'," he said, trying to make the policeman feel at ease.

"Something for pain," George thought. All he had was the pills he used for his back. "These ought to work." He put some water in a cup and gave the policeman the pills. "You hang in there, I'm going to get you an ambulance."

The phone was dead. "Maybe I can get one of your buddies on that there talk box out in your car." He went out only to find that a bullet had gone into the dashboard destroying the two way radio.

He went back in to find the policeman sitting up. "Thanks," said the officer. "You could have left me there. The guy that shot me is still in the area."

George sat down beside him, "I would never leave an injured man in the Army and I ain't gonna leave you." George pulled back the bandage to check for bleeding. "Looks worse than what it is. Bullet passed right through 'ya. Good thing it missed the important stuff though. I think with time your gonna be right as rain."

George got up and poured a cup of coffee. "How do you take it?" he asked. "None for me," said the officer. "Oh, yer gonna drink this. Best in the city. Too bad I ain't got no donuts." The officer laughed and winced at the same time.

The front door of the office flew open. In burst a young man with a gun. "Give me all your cash! Do it now!" the young man yelled. His hand was shaking and George could tell that he had never done anything like this before.

"That's the guy that shot me!" exclaimed the officer.

"Son, why are you doing this?" asked George, "You need to put the cannon away. Somebody else might get hurt."

The young man was confused. "Shut up old man, or I'll shoot you, too. Now give me the cash!"

The cop was reaching for his gun. "Put that thing away," George said to the cop, "we got one too many in here now."

He turned his attention to the young man. "Son, it's Christmas Eve. If you need money, well then, here. It ain't much but it's all I got. Now put that pee shooter away."

George pulled $150 out of his pocket and handed it to the young man, reaching for the barrel of the gun at the same time. The young man released his grip on the gun, fell to his knees and began to cry. "I'm not very good at this am I? All I wanted was to buy something for my wife and son," he went on. "I've lost my job, my rent is due, my car got repossessed last week .."

George handed the gun to the cop. Son, we all get in a bit of squeeze now and then. The road gets hard sometimes, but we make it through the best we can."

He got the young man to his feet, and sat him down on a chair across from the cop. "Sometimes we do stupid things." George handed the young man a cup of coffee. "Bein' stupid is one of the things that makes us human. Comin' in here with a gun ain't the answer. Now sit there and get warm and we'll sort this thing out."

The young man had stopped crying. He looked over to the cop. "Sorry I shot you. It just went off. I'm sorry officer."

"Shut up and drink your coffee." the cop said.

George could hear the sounds of sirens outside. A police car and an ambulance skidded to a halt. Two cops came through the door, guns drawn. "Chuck! You ok?" one of the cops asked the wounded officer.

"Not bad for a guy who took a bullet. How did you find me?"

"GPS locator in the car. Best thing since sliced bread. Who did this?" the other cop asked as he approached the young man.

Chuck answered him, "I don't know. The guy ran off into the dark. Just dropped his gun and ran."

George and the young man both looked puzzled at each other.

"That guy work here?," the wounded cop continued. "Yep," George said, "just hired him this morning. Boy lost his job."

The paramedics came in and loaded Chuck onto the stretcher. The young man leaned over the wounded cop and whispered, "Why?"

Chuck just said, "Merry Christmas boy ... and you too, George, and thanks for everything."

"Well, looks like you got one doozy of a break there. That ought to solve some of your problems."

George went into the back room and came out with a box. He pulled out a ring box. "Here you go, something for the little woman. I don't think Martha would mind. She said it would come in handy some day."

The young man looked inside to see the biggest diamond ring he ever saw. "I can't take this," said the young man. "It means something to you."

"And now it means something to you," replied George. "I got my memories. That's all I need."

George reached into the box again. An airplane, a car and a truck appeared next. They were toys that the oil company had left for him to sell. "Here's something for that little man of yours."

The young man began to cry again as he handed back the $150 that the old man had handed him earlier.

"And what are you supposed to buy Christmas dinner with? You keep that too," George said, "Now git home to your family."

The young man turned with tears streaming down his face. "I'll be here in the morning for work, if that job offer is still good."

"Nope. I'm closed Christmas day," George said. "See ya the day after."

George turned around to find that the stranger had returned. "Where'd you come from? I thought you left?"

 

The rest of the story.

"I have been here. I have always been here," said the stranger. "You say you don't celebrate Christmas. Why?"

"Well, after my wife passed away, I just couldn't see what all the bother was. Puttin' up a tree and all seemed a waste of a good pine tree. Bakin' cookies like I used to with Martha just wasn't the same by myself and besides I was gettin' a little chubby."

The stranger put his hand on George's shoulder. "But you do celebrate the holiday, George.
You gave me food and drink and warmed me when I was cold and hungry.
The woman with child will bear a son and he will become a great doctor.
The policeman you helped will go on to save 19 people from being killed by terrorists.
The young man who tried to rob you will make you a rich man and not take any for himself. "That is the spirit of the season and you keep it as good as any man."

George was taken aback by all this stranger had said. "And how do you know all this?" asked the old man.

"Trust me, George. I have the inside track on this sort of thing. And when your days are done you will be with Martha again."

The stranger moved toward the door. "If you will excuse me, George, I have to go now. I have to go home where there is a big celebration planned."

George watched as the old leather jacket and the torn pants that the stranger was wearing turned into a white robe. A golden light began to fill the room.

"You see, George ... it's My birthday. Merry Christmas."

George fell to his knees and replied, "Happy Birthday, Lord."

 

That was a great touching story, a lot of good things in it. Glad you posted it, it brings a tear to my eye.

 

Yeah me too. Had an idea how the story would end and about half thru it I was getting misty eyed. You know I came from a small town and grew up in many other places and I can still remember when things were actually like that.

 

Yeah so did I, I kind of figured the stranger was Jesus himself. Verry good metaphor, and looking forward to the party he is setting up. But it is still weird that it is forever, gives me butterflies in my stomach. But that is human nature, we only know an end.

 

ok im not a christian nor do i celebrate X-mas or Jesus or stuff...but i have one comment to add....ive lived in europe now in canada...and the difference is amazing...ive noticed that most younger crowd celebrate x-mas and are excited about it more because of gifts and what they are going to get then because its a religious holyday....i have a athiest friend that celebrates x-mas and says its about gift giving and not about Christ...umm...no ....but anyways...i celebrate Ramadan...and we arent really gifty type family...as long as we are alive and happy, its all that matters but i am not dissapointed at all not getting gifts on Ramadan...anyways i guess im trying to say lots of people lost the actual touch that its about a religious experience and not just gifts....my family has been trough a war i guess we have alot of different views on things people here take for granted which kind of makes me mad as they should be so happy not have to go trough hard times just to realise how a stinking gift does NOT make the holyday...anyways thats all i gotta say...peace out...

 

well said Skully. I totally agree, materialism and individualism is taking over our communities. Has anyone read Robert Bellah's Habits of the Heart?

 

I agree with you too Skully. Now I know that gifts are overwhelming during the Christmas season. And it seems it is all about money and greed. Which is sad, that it went mostly to marketing. And filling peoples pockets up. But I like to get my family gifts, not just because I will get gifts. But the look on their faces when they open them. That is the joy I experience, along with going to the Christmas eve service. Going to my parents, reading the story from the Bible. And then taking turns opening gifts. We go from youngest to oldest. One gift at a time, it is more fun and enjoyable that way. And then we go to a movie on Christmas day, as a family. We are going to see Chronicles of Narnia this year. I loved reading the books as a kid. Great stories, with plenty of exitement, and morals. Anyway I am getting off-track here. Just wanted to share my joys, and experiences.

 

I seriously can't wait for narnia to come out.....talk about a flash back to the childhood!

 

No where in our constitution does it say that we have the right to not be offended. That is a major problem in our country today. People go arround looking for an excuse to be offended by somthing as a way of stopping somthing that they don't agree with. True feedom lets all express their opinions whether they offend someone or not. Nobody is forcing you to agree with them. Dissenting opinion and debate without coming to blows or worse, is what makes our country great and uniqe in the world. You can't force someone to come to God- but God can force you to come to him. One day you just might find yourself on the other side of the argument. Untill then we will pray for you.

 

Did you know that the crusades were in part retaliation for the muslum invasion of Europe prior to that? The only French military victory in history drove them back into Spain. Many people don't know that because they called them the Moores.

 

...you guys should chill.

Thats why religion is the cause of so many wars... stupid people who think GOD is always on their side.

BOTH christians or muslims have a bloody history to answer for when they face final judgement and then they'll find out what GOD really thinks of them.

The Irish said it right... Religion is a fine thig...when taken in moderation.