O-ringed block and metal head gasket
05-15-2003 | 10:33 AM
#1
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O-ringed block and metal head gasket
Does anybody have any experiance with o-ringed blocks and metal head gaskets? Specifically can the gaskets be reused? They are around $150 each and I have two on my engine. I don't want to replace them if they can be re-used. I've heard that they can be, but I wanted to see if anyone had any experiance with them.
Randy
Randy
05-15-2003 | 07:20 PM
#2
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 646
Hey Randy,
I called Steve Christiansen over at Nissan Motorsports about the head gasket issue. He was out of the office today , so I will give him another try tomorrow. Also remember that members of this board get discounts on parts for their race cars
Mike
I called Steve Christiansen over at Nissan Motorsports about the head gasket issue. He was out of the office today , so I will give him another try tomorrow. Also remember that members of this board get discounts on parts for their race cars
Mike
05-15-2003 | 07:56 PM
#3
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Discounts eh? Well I might need them. Seems the head gasket is the least of my worries, on one hand, on the other I think I found the source of the annoying high speed miss. Looks like the dampner bolt came loose and the dampner twisted on the crank just enough so it won't come off. I supported the back of the dampner as not to pull on the outer rubber ring with my puller. Try as I might it would not budge. I carfully heated the dampner around the bore with a propane torch. I got it pretty hot, but not hot enough to effect the rubber, still no budging. I wacked it pretty hard, and tried to burn out any crap in the bore. Still nothing. It was about then it accured to me what was happening. So at the very least the dampner is toast, I thought, and probably the crank as well. So I might as well give it one last effort to try and get it off. I broke out the "Victor Torch". I knew that this would toast the rubber ring, but the only thing left was to dissassemble the bottom end, and try to have it pressed off in a big press, which would probaby ruin the dampner anyway. So I heated it a little hotter and wrenched on the puller a little more. Still would not budge. I got it pretty darn hot, almost red and it still is stuck. So I either cut it off or take it to the engine people and have them take a wack at it. When I talked to him on the phone, he wasn't too optimistic about saving the dampner and said that the dampner would have been toast even if I hadn't barbqued it. *sigh* Since I don't have the stomach for watching my money get pressed, machined, turned, and what ever else might happen to it, I think I'll leave this one up to the professionals.
So with all that said, I diffinetly won't be out to PR this weekend, and maybe not to PIR June 7th/8th.
Thanks for letting me cry on your shoulders
Randy
So with all that said, I diffinetly won't be out to PR this weekend, and maybe not to PIR June 7th/8th.
Thanks for letting me cry on your shoulders
Randy
05-15-2003 | 08:31 PM
#4
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 646
Hey Randy,
Sound like its stuck on the woodruff key .
I am thinking you might have hasd to rotate it a bit to get back in the groove.
Are you still running a Nissan dampner ?
Hopefully you are using a fluid one . I understand the Chevy one can be adapted to the Nissan crank.
BTW... I am watching you work on your garage cam. >>> Randy's garage cam link live video feed .
http://www.koolkam.com/modules.php?o...er_mlc=gtzilla
If you need parts let us know and we will get ahold of what you need .
Mike
Sound like its stuck on the woodruff key .
I am thinking you might have hasd to rotate it a bit to get back in the groove.
Are you still running a Nissan dampner ?
Hopefully you are using a fluid one . I understand the Chevy one can be adapted to the Nissan crank.
BTW... I am watching you work on your garage cam. >>> Randy's garage cam link live video feed .
http://www.koolkam.com/modules.php?o...er_mlc=gtzilla
If you need parts let us know and we will get ahold of what you need .
Mike
05-16-2003 | 10:08 AM
#5
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 236
From: Waukesha, WI
I have the Nismo o-ring setup on my L28, and it's been educational to say the least. I've been talking with Steve Christensen extensively. The motor has not been run yet, but its been an adventure already. I got to talking with Dr. Sideways and he mentioned he's seen several motors with head gasket leaks (coolant) out the side of the block with the ARP studs. I filled up my motor while it was on the stand, and water was streaming out. Well it turns out your supposed to run the motor sans coolant initially just to warm it up and seal the gasket, per Steve at Nissan. I was pissed that there couldn't be a simple sheet of instructions sold with it to tell me this. Now I have to tear the head back off and possible get new o-rings too. I guess you can use them up to two times, but its not garanteed. I find out that even by doing this, its still not a givin that it won't leak coolant or oil when static. I guess some of the pro teams (other manufactures included) drain the coolant out between race sessions just for this reason. Talk about a pain in the but!! I'm trying to find out if you can put some type of sealer on the gasket, something like that copper spray, but no word yet.
05-16-2003 | 10:25 AM
#6
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I'm not 100% sure that these are Nissam Comp gaskets. They might be HKS (which may be the same as comp). I talked to Dave Rebello and he suggested using a stock head gasket. He said that the fire ring on the gasket should bite into the o-ring (mine are copper) and seal up. When I took the head off there was copper RTV in between the head and the top gasket, between the two gaskets, and between the bottom gasket and the block. It was every where, so it looks like they had a sealing problem as well. The tops three of the piston and the corresponding combustion chambers all had the white fuzz of corrosion so it was leaking into the cylinders a little anyway.
So I have ordered a stock head gasket to see how it works. Since I have to take the engine into the engine guy for the damper issue, I'll ping him on the gasket issue and see what he says.
Randy
So I have ordered a stock head gasket to see how it works. Since I have to take the engine into the engine guy for the damper issue, I'll ping him on the gasket issue and see what he says.
Randy
05-16-2003 | 10:52 AM
#7
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 646
Preith,
You saved me a call to Steve The gaskets sold by Nissan Motorsports were HKS I believe . 1 and 2 mm thickness were offered in the catalog.
I read your question on HybridZ about the head gasket issue, and also read somewhere else about the dry run on the head gasket. Could have been in the older Nissan catalog. My feelings on coating the gaskets is that the head and block are dissimilar metals . They heat and cool and different rates , so I am not sure how that would help much, but it would be nice to find out.
Draining the block is a pain if you had to do it all the time. We did it on our dragster back in the 70's . had two petcocks on the block and let it drain out. We only ran water back then , so it just ran on the ground. Adding water weter to the engine would get costly draining all the time
Malvern Racing has a place you can ask questions about engine related problems. It would be interesting to see what they have to say as well.
I wonder if we lost Dr. Sideways from this forum again
You saved me a call to Steve
The gaskets sold by Nissan Motorsports were HKS I believe . 1 and 2 mm thickness were offered in the catalog.I read your question on HybridZ about the head gasket issue, and also read somewhere else about the dry run on the head gasket. Could have been in the older Nissan catalog. My feelings on coating the gaskets is that the head and block are dissimilar metals . They heat and cool and different rates , so I am not sure how that would help much, but it would be nice to find out.
Draining the block is a pain if you had to do it all the time. We did it on our dragster back in the 70's . had two petcocks on the block and let it drain out. We only ran water back then , so it just ran on the ground. Adding water weter to the engine would get costly draining all the time
Malvern Racing has a place you can ask questions about engine related problems. It would be interesting to see what they have to say as well.
I wonder if we lost Dr. Sideways from this forum again
05-16-2003 | 02:59 PM
#8
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 236
From: Waukesha, WI
GTzilla,
As far as I know, the only gaskets that are HKS are the metal 1 and 2mm gaskets, not the 0-ring setup. These rings aren't copper, they're a gas filled steel, or something similar to. I have not seen the copper ones for sale. There's no way you can lay a stock gasket on top of the rings, they're pretty big. I'm thinking the copper ones are smaller. Plus the gasket they sell with it works real good to keep the rings centered.
It looks like I'll have to over torque the head studs to help it seal. ARP listed the torque at 45lbs with they're moly lube, but Steve said that wasn't enough. Also,I think I'll try the dry run and if it leaks, I'll go with some type of sealer.
I mentioned the problem to Dave at Malvern, and he didn't have any suggestions...surprisingly.
P.S. Maybe someone can provide a picture of the copper rings?
As far as I know, the only gaskets that are HKS are the metal 1 and 2mm gaskets, not the 0-ring setup. These rings aren't copper, they're a gas filled steel, or something similar to. I have not seen the copper ones for sale. There's no way you can lay a stock gasket on top of the rings, they're pretty big. I'm thinking the copper ones are smaller. Plus the gasket they sell with it works real good to keep the rings centered.
It looks like I'll have to over torque the head studs to help it seal. ARP listed the torque at 45lbs with they're moly lube, but Steve said that wasn't enough. Also,I think I'll try the dry run and if it leaks, I'll go with some type of sealer.
I mentioned the problem to Dave at Malvern, and he didn't have any suggestions...surprisingly.
P.S. Maybe someone can provide a picture of the copper rings?
05-16-2003 | 03:15 PM
#9
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I just finished wrapping up the engine with plastic wrap or I would take a picture. I'll take one when I get it back. These are about 0.040 thickness and they stick up about 0.005 out of the block. Dave said about 0.005 to 0.007 should be about right. If I remember correctly he said that he used stainless o-rings, but he doesn't o-ring blocks anymore because of the sealing issue. Hmmm.. maybe o-ringing Z blocks should be put into the SLAGIATT category. Seemed Like A Good Idea At The Time.
Also, Guess what I found in the bottom of the oil pan stuck to a magnet? A crankshaft key. Gee I wonder where that came from?!?
Randy
Also, Guess what I found in the bottom of the oil pan stuck to a magnet? A crankshaft key. Gee I wonder where that came from?!?
Randy
05-16-2003 | 09:15 PM
#10
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 646
Randy ,
After a one hour call to Nissan Motorsports here is the scoop I got.
The copper O rings and the gaskets are still available from Nissan. I was wrong before thinking they were HKS. Steve said that the O rings are pretty spendy.
retail is $40 per hole plus the $150 you stated on gasket cost. Remember this was retail he quoted me. He also stated that most people don't O ring blocks anymore . He said that was 80's technology and there are better ways to get the block to seal with the newer gaskets. He even listed a few for me.
Let me know if you need the gasket . I can get a price on it next week.
He also said that what Rebello said would work if the grooves weren't in that location. He gave me the measurements that they would have to be in order to make it work along with grrove size and the use of a certain diameter copper wire.
Preith,
He also explained why the gaskets leak if water is left in the block for certain amounts of time. It made total sense the way he explained it.
After a one hour call to Nissan Motorsports here is the scoop I got.
The copper O rings and the gaskets are still available from Nissan. I was wrong before thinking they were HKS. Steve said that the O rings are pretty spendy.
retail is $40 per hole plus the $150 you stated on gasket cost. Remember this was retail he quoted me. He also stated that most people don't O ring blocks anymore . He said that was 80's technology and there are better ways to get the block to seal with the newer gaskets. He even listed a few for me.
Let me know if you need the gasket . I can get a price on it next week.
He also said that what Rebello said would work if the grooves weren't in that location. He gave me the measurements that they would have to be in order to make it work along with grrove size and the use of a certain diameter copper wire.
Preith,
He also explained why the gaskets leak if water is left in the block for certain amounts of time. It made total sense the way he explained it.
05-17-2003 | 06:15 AM
#11
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Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 100
For what it's worth guys, I have been running stock head gaskets for 10 years now on my 14:1 motor. The ONLY time I had a HG problem was when I used a FelPro gasket instead of a Nissan part. Granted, I only run my car in Solo so it's not wide open for 20+ minutes at a time, but then again I can go 6+ years between rebuilds. The last gasket was showing no signs damage when I took the head off. $40... you can't beat it!
Tom
Tom
05-17-2003 | 09:01 AM
#12
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 48
Originally posted by Spudz
Randy ,
After a one hour call to Nissan Motorsports here is the scoop I got.
He said that was 80's technology and there are better ways to get the block to seal with the newer gaskets. He even listed a few for me.
He also said that what Rebello said would work if the grooves weren't in that location. He gave me the measurements that they would have to be in order to make it work along with grrove size and the use of a certain diameter copper wire.
Preith,
He also explained why the gaskets leak if water is left in the block for certain amounts of time. It made total sense the way he explained it.
Randy ,
After a one hour call to Nissan Motorsports here is the scoop I got.
He said that was 80's technology and there are better ways to get the block to seal with the newer gaskets. He even listed a few for me.
He also said that what Rebello said would work if the grooves weren't in that location. He gave me the measurements that they would have to be in order to make it work along with grrove size and the use of a certain diameter copper wire.
Preith,
He also explained why the gaskets leak if water is left in the block for certain amounts of time. It made total sense the way he explained it.
Don't hold back on the names of those "new" headgaskets!
The main thing for placing the oring groove is for it to be in the fire ring of the gasket.
Who wants an engine that has to be drained every time you let it cool off? We don't have crews that we can assign such a task to. What if the water goes the other way and ends up in the cylinder? Then in the oil. There are enough ways to shoot my foot off doing all of this without making new ones.
Speaking of short time...... The Triad Z Club will be having its annual Z Car show Memorial Day weekend in Greensboro, NC. This year we will have a fun drive through the boonies on Saturday. The show on Sunday. Sunday evening we will have a charity auction benefiting The Victory Junction Camp. For more information go here:http://www.triadzclub.com
My next event will be the VIR Gold Cup Races on June 5-7. For info on that go here:http://www.virclub.com If you can come out to the track make sure and stop by the trailer. If you have not been to VIR it is a real treat. Even the track food is good.
Alan
05-17-2003 | 10:13 AM
#13
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Hmm.. I wonder if I can simply remove the o-rings and leave the grooves in the block and run the stock head gasket? I'll ask on monday when I take the block in to get the damper removed. The groove is approx. .034 deep by .040 width.
Preith, I think the gasket that you are referring to are the fire ring gaskets that require a shoulder to be cut into the cylinder wall for the ring to registar on. This is not that type.
Randy
Preith, I think the gasket that you are referring to are the fire ring gaskets that require a shoulder to be cut into the cylinder wall for the ring to registar on. This is not that type.
Randy
05-17-2003 | 11:22 AM
#15
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Yeah that's what everyone else calls a "fire ring" type. Of course not to be confused with the standard fire ring in a stock gasket.
Mine is just a fine copper wire, .040 in diameter that sits in a groove cut in the block about .100 in from the edge of the cylinder. The gasket is supposed to crush into the wire and seal the cylinder. I'm thinking that a stock gasket will do the same.
BTW .040 copper wire is about $3.95 Lb. and I need about 5 grams LOL. Stainless wire could be used, I guess. Putting it in is no big deal. Just push it in the groove with a piece of plastic and butt the ends.
BTW I'm going to watch Guy Selle in his second novice race. And of course it's raining like it was in his first race, and he is in a Datsun roadster. Oh well, at least I have an umbrella
Randy
Mine is just a fine copper wire, .040 in diameter that sits in a groove cut in the block about .100 in from the edge of the cylinder. The gasket is supposed to crush into the wire and seal the cylinder. I'm thinking that a stock gasket will do the same.
BTW .040 copper wire is about $3.95 Lb. and I need about 5 grams LOL. Stainless wire could be used, I guess. Putting it in is no big deal. Just push it in the groove with a piece of plastic and butt the ends.
BTW I'm going to watch Guy Selle in his second novice race. And of course it's raining like it was in his first race, and he is in a Datsun roadster. Oh well, at least I have an umbrella
Randy
05-17-2003 | 11:29 AM
#16
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 646
Randy,
What you just described on your head gasket will work according to Steve. He says the sealing ring on the standard head gasket fits on top of the copper ring.
I thought I saw Guy with a Roadster in pics from a few weeks . My friend Steve Ward is over there for his last Novice qualifying race. He was using an RX7 with a VG30E in it. Joe Klokkevold has just completed a VQ30 Maxima to rear wheel drive engine for it. I would like to see how that works out. Then maybe a VQ35 on a first generation Z car
What you just described on your head gasket will work according to Steve. He says the sealing ring on the standard head gasket fits on top of the copper ring.
I thought I saw Guy with a Roadster in pics from a few weeks . My friend Steve Ward is over there for his last Novice qualifying race. He was using an RX7 with a VG30E in it. Joe Klokkevold has just completed a VQ30 Maxima to rear wheel drive engine for it. I would like to see how that works out. Then maybe a VQ35 on a first generation Z car
05-17-2003 | 06:25 PM
#17
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Well, I guess we'll end the speculation and find out for sure. I'm going to run a stock gasket and hope for the best.
So was your friend Steve driving a yellow gen 2 RX-7? That one didn't sound like a rotory at all. In fact I even commented that it was the quietest RX that I had ever heard. He went pretty good, in fact I think he finshed two postions ahead of Guy.
Guy BTW was doing very well! He ran a 1:44.3 in practice in his D Production Roadster. Not to many years ago the ITS track record was 1:42. It's now like a 1:40. The GT2 pack runs at 1:34's to 1:36s's (me) for perspective. So I'm proud of the lad, he did well. Now if we can only get that ear to ear grin off his face...
I have some good pictures that I'll post on the NWDE site. I'll let you know.
It's hard going to the track with out the car. It's like going fishin' without a pole
Randy
So was your friend Steve driving a yellow gen 2 RX-7? That one didn't sound like a rotory at all. In fact I even commented that it was the quietest RX that I had ever heard. He went pretty good, in fact I think he finshed two postions ahead of Guy.
Guy BTW was doing very well! He ran a 1:44.3 in practice in his D Production Roadster. Not to many years ago the ITS track record was 1:42. It's now like a 1:40. The GT2 pack runs at 1:34's to 1:36s's (me) for perspective. So I'm proud of the lad, he did well. Now if we can only get that ear to ear grin off his face...
I have some good pictures that I'll post on the NWDE site. I'll let you know.
It's hard going to the track with out the car. It's like going fishin' without a pole
Randy
05-17-2003 | 09:29 PM
#18
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 646
Randy,
Steve I think was driving a silver second gen RX7 with J & B Welding on the side rear quarter panel. They also could have used another car . Never know what cars actually run over at Joes shop.
Thats great news to hear about Guy. Are you going back out tomorrow ?? If so say Hi to Guy for me , and if you see that RX7 guys check them out. Joe is a huge Datsun fan. He even has a 212 in his shop.
Also if you see any other Z racers there let them know about the web site and the racing boards.
Thanks,
Mike
Steve I think was driving a silver second gen RX7 with J & B Welding on the side rear quarter panel. They also could have used another car . Never know what cars actually run over at Joes shop.
Thats great news to hear about Guy. Are you going back out tomorrow ?? If so say Hi to Guy for me , and if you see that RX7 guys check them out. Joe is a huge Datsun fan. He even has a 212 in his shop.
Also if you see any other Z racers there let them know about the web site and the racing boards.
Thanks,
Mike
05-22-2003 | 06:47 AM
#19
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 236
From: Waukesha, WI
This discussion has really shed some light on this setup, and I think I may have made a bad decision in going with it, that is the "fire ring" setup which GTZila reffered to them as. Since I haven't run the motor yet, I feel I should at least try them out, or alter something a bit. I was thinking why cant a stock head gasket be used by trimming out the original fire ring that's in the gasket to make room for the new ones? I would think this would take care of any oil/water sealing problems. This would cetainly cut the price down a bit too. If I remember correcly, the stock gasket was of a softer material which could be cut fairly easily. Does anybody know the crushed thickness of this? Any other thoughts?
05-22-2003 | 09:39 AM
#20
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Preith,
I'm not sure what the crushed thickness is. But the stock head gasket does have metal in it. The gasket material is bonded to a very thin piece of metal. At least the last gasket that I took off (a stock head gasket that is) came apart and had a very thin sheet of metal in between the gasket material. So cutting it might be a hassle. If you had a big punch of some sort, that might do the trick. But the problem that you might run into is the material becoming un-bonded and seperating, leaking between the layers around the area that you cut. Don't know for sure this will happen, just playing the devils advocate here.
Another friend who drives a GT-4 200SX (fifth at the run offs two years ago) swears by a product called 3-bond. I haven't used it or even seen it, but he uses it instead of an exhaust manifold gasket and says he's never had a sealing problem with his header. That might work to re-seal the cut edges.
BTW Johnny at Autosport Seattle confirmed that a stock head gasket should work fine with my o-ring set up.
Randy
I'm not sure what the crushed thickness is. But the stock head gasket does have metal in it. The gasket material is bonded to a very thin piece of metal. At least the last gasket that I took off (a stock head gasket that is) came apart and had a very thin sheet of metal in between the gasket material. So cutting it might be a hassle. If you had a big punch of some sort, that might do the trick. But the problem that you might run into is the material becoming un-bonded and seperating, leaking between the layers around the area that you cut. Don't know for sure this will happen, just playing the devils advocate here.
Another friend who drives a GT-4 200SX (fifth at the run offs two years ago) swears by a product called 3-bond. I haven't used it or even seen it, but he uses it instead of an exhaust manifold gasket and says he's never had a sealing problem with his header. That might work to re-seal the cut edges.
BTW Johnny at Autosport Seattle confirmed that a stock head gasket should work fine with my o-ring set up.
Randy
01-15-2004 | 10:01 AM
#22
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 26
From: UK
hi guys. I havent got the o rings on the block surface but am running a 3.1 with a HKS 3 layer steel gasket. I have reused it on 2 engine builds by striping the coating from it and re applying a gasket shalack which is like a rubber coating that you brush on. The engine is now apart for the 3rd time due to distributor gear failure and the head gasket is showing no signs of leakage. I am running close to 12.1 comp and although usualy only run the car at hillclimbs I did have 40 minutes running time at Zanvort circuit in 2000 without any trouble. It is a pain cleaning the old gasket but for $150 for a new one it seemed worth it hope this helps ben
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